Looking for unusual alder cones

[Michael Bell]

I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

You can write to me at the above e-mail address, it is valid, it won't
bite your hand off!

Michael Bell

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[Darkside]

Post by Michael Bell
I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

Do tell - what do you want them for?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Darkside

Post by Michael Bell
I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

Do tell - what do you want them for?

It's a long story. I am looking for a useful crop for uplands like the
Cheviots where I grew up. There was little money in sheep then and
there is less now. Nor in grouse.

The traditional cereal crops come from the Middle-East and are at the
limit of their range in Britain. So develop a native plant! I looked
at various sedges, but, and it may be an irrational leap, I plumped
for alder. It fixes nitrogen and doesn't have to be replanted every
year. Although it is classically a river-bank tree, in fact that is
not its main habitat. It grows very well on abandoned railway
embankments in Tyne and Wear, you can't get better drained than that!
I want to develop it as a grain crop, a tree as a grain crop is an
unusual idea, but we have apple, pears etc. The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

The seeds very small, but I have gone round alders and found alders
with significantly bigger seeds, I have crossbred them and I will
harvest the first generation at the start of November. Patience,
Michael, patience! I feel I am making useful progress on that front,
but the cones are tough, making it difficult to thresh the seeds out
and seem to me the use up too much of the tree's output. So I am
looking for flimsier.

A very way-out project! But fun!

Michael Bell

[Malcolm]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Darkside

Post by Michael Bell
I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

Do tell - what do you want them for?

It's a long story. I am looking for a useful crop for uplands like the
Cheviots where I grew up. There was little money in sheep then and
there is less now. Nor in grouse.
The traditional cereal crops come from the Middle-East and are at the
limit of their range in Britain. So develop a native plant! I looked
at various sedges, but, and it may be an irrational leap, I plumped
for alder. It fixes nitrogen and doesn't have to be replanted every
year. Although it is classically a river-bank tree, in fact that is
not its main habitat. It grows very well on abandoned railway
embankments in Tyne and Wear, you can't get better drained than that!
I want to develop it as a grain crop, a tree as a grain crop is an
unusual idea, but we have apple, pears etc. The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.
The seeds very small, but I have gone round alders and found alders
with significantly bigger seeds, I have crossbred them and I will
harvest the first generation at the start of November. Patience,
Michael, patience! I feel I am making useful progress on that front,
but the cones are tough, making it difficult to thresh the seeds out
and seem to me the use up too much of the tree's output. So I am
looking for flimsier.
A very way-out project! But fun!

You've posted about this here before. I'm pleased to see you've made
good progress. You say you've crossbred them - presumably by
cross-pollination - so good luck with the first crop.

The seeds are, as I am sure you are aware, an important food source for
wildfowl not least because they float on water. Smaller birds like
finches eat them off the tree. Alders are regularly included in
broad-leaved planting in this area, growing a lot faster than many other
species.

[Darkside]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Darkside

Post by Michael Bell
I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

Do tell - what do you want them for?

It's a long story. I am looking for a useful crop for uplands like the
Cheviots where I grew up. There was little money in sheep then and
there is less now. Nor in grouse.
The traditional cereal crops come from the Middle-East and are at the
limit of their range in Britain. So develop a native plant! I looked
at various sedges, but, and it may be an irrational leap, I plumped
for alder. It fixes nitrogen and doesn't have to be replanted every
year. Although it is classically a river-bank tree, in fact that is
not its main habitat. It grows very well on abandoned railway
embankments in Tyne and Wear, you can't get better drained than that!
I want to develop it as a grain crop, a tree as a grain crop is an
unusual idea, but we have apple, pears etc. The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.
The seeds very small, but I have gone round alders and found alders
with significantly bigger seeds, I have crossbred them and I will
harvest the first generation at the start of November. Patience,
Michael, patience! I feel I am making useful progress on that front,
but the cones are tough, making it difficult to thresh the seeds out
and seem to me the use up too much of the tree's output. So I am
looking for flimsier.
A very way-out project! But fun!

Thanks, that's very interesting. I'll check out the alders of local
river banks. Alnus glutinosa doesn't spread away from flood plains
here: are you sure the alders on railway banks aren't grey alder, with
pointy-ended leaves, a different species?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Darkside

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Darkside

Post by Michael Bell
I am looking for alders with flimsier, less robust, cones. Does
anybody know of any?

Do tell - what do you want them for?

It's a long story. I am looking for a useful crop for uplands like the
Cheviots where I grew up. There was little money in sheep then and
there is less now. Nor in grouse.
The traditional cereal crops come from the Middle-East and are at the
limit of their range in Britain. So develop a native plant! I looked
at various sedges, but, and it may be an irrational leap, I plumped
for alder. It fixes nitrogen and doesn't have to be replanted every
year. Although it is classically a river-bank tree, in fact that is
not its main habitat. It grows very well on abandoned railway
embankments in Tyne and Wear, you can't get better drained than that!
I want to develop it as a grain crop, a tree as a grain crop is an
unusual idea, but we have apple, pears etc. The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.
The seeds very small, but I have gone round alders and found alders
with significantly bigger seeds, I have crossbred them and I will
harvest the first generation at the start of November. Patience,
Michael, patience! I feel I am making useful progress on that front,
but the cones are tough, making it difficult to thresh the seeds out
and seem to me the use up too much of the tree's output. So I am
looking for flimsier.
A very way-out project! But fun!

Thanks, that's very interesting. I'll check out the alders of local
river banks. Alnus glutinosa doesn't spread away from flood plains
here: are you sure the alders on railway banks aren't grey alder, with
pointy-ended leaves, a different species?

It's a mistake to think that all A. glutinosa leaves have notched
(incurving) tips, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnus_glutinosa The
bark is also quite distinctive.

Italian alder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnus_cordata is very
widely planted in "municipal" settings, parks, road sides, that sort
of place, and it is naturalised in Tyne and Wear. There's no
difficulty telling it apart!



Michael Bell

[Darkside]

Post by Michael Bell
It's a mistake to think that all A. glutinosa leaves have notched
(incurving) tips, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnus_glutinosa The
bark is also quite distinctive.

True. The leaves vary in shape on every tree, though notched ones are
common enough.

Post by Michael Bell
Italian alder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnus_cordata is very
widely planted in "municipal" settings, parks, road sides, that sort
of place, and it is naturalised in Tyne and Wear. There's no
difficulty telling it apart!

But when I bit a seed of that species it tasted bitter - and since it
can be grown on mine spoil it might be the alder whose seeds aren't non-
toxic. The seeds of A glutinosa weren't bitter but they're very small
and more skin than meat, so a lot of breeding will be needed to get them
large enough to be worth processing for human food. Sadly those I found
had pretty solid cones.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Steve

[Darkside]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...

[Michael Bell]

Post by Darkside

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...

Maybe the taste depends on the variety, I haven't tested it. I ground
the seeds and made a "porridge" of them, and they tasted on nothing in
particular. I've exchanged e-mails with a Finnish agricultural hippie
who sweeps them off the snow (this is Finland!) and puts them in his
soup.

I inch forwards!

Michael

[Christina Websell]

Post by Darkside

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...
--
Sue ]:(:)

They might be palatable, and if you find some that will make a complete meal
this afternoon let me know.
I like the idea, but we all know that alder seeds, however big, will not
feed the world so I suggest you stop encouraging him.
It's not nice.

[Michael Bell]

Post by Christina Websell

Post by Darkside

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...
--
Sue ]:(:)

They might be palatable, and if you find some that will make a complete meal
this afternoon let me know.
I like the idea, but we all know that alder seeds, however big, will not
feed the world so I suggest you stop encouraging him.
It's not nice.

I know perfectly well that this is a project which is unlikely to
succeed, at least in my lifetime, but it's worth a try; the work is
interesting, not hard, and lasts for only a few bursts of a few weeks,
the rest of the time the trees get on with growing.

I have answered before that the seeds are not poisonous, very few (and
well-known) seeds are poisonous, seeds mostly taste of nothing in
particular, like wheat, rice, maize... and I and friends have tested
them and I have been in touch with a Finnish agricultural hippy who
sweeps the seeds off the snow (this is Finland!) and puts them into
his soup. We are all still alive! I have answered these questions
before and won't again.

Michael Bell

[Christina Websell]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Christina Websell

Post by Darkside

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...
--
Sue ]:(:)

They might be palatable, and if you find some that will make a complete meal
this afternoon let me know.
I like the idea, but we all know that alder seeds, however big, will not
feed the world so I suggest you stop encouraging him.
It's not nice.

I know perfectly well that this is a project which is unlikely to
succeed, at least in my lifetime, but it's worth a try; the work is
interesting, not hard, and lasts for only a few bursts of a few weeks,
the rest of the time the trees get on with growing.
I have answered before that the seeds are not poisonous, very few (and
well-known) seeds are poisonous, seeds mostly taste of nothing in
particular, like wheat, rice, maize... and I and friends have tested
them and I have been in touch with a Finnish agricultural hippy who
sweeps the seeds off the snow (this is Finland!) and puts them into
his soup. We are all still alive! I have answered these questions
before and won't again.
Michael Bell

Please use your considerable talents for something else more useful.

Post by Michael Bell
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[Michael Bell]

Post by Christina Websell

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Christina Websell

Post by Darkside

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:41:36 +0100, Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
The seeds are tasteless,
but so are wheat and rice till they are cooked or brewed. I know they
are not poisonous, few seeds are.

I've never seen alder seeds being sold for food in the UK. It would be
interesting to try some in my bread.

Absolutely! Please report back, as the project depends on the seeds
being actually palatable and not merely non-poisonous. I wonder if I
can find any this afternoon...
--
Sue ]:(:)

They might be palatable, and if you find some that will make a complete meal
this afternoon let me know.
I like the idea, but we all know that alder seeds, however big, will not
feed the world so I suggest you stop encouraging him.
It's not nice.

I know perfectly well that this is a project which is unlikely to
succeed, at least in my lifetime, but it's worth a try; the work is
interesting, not hard, and lasts for only a few bursts of a few weeks,
the rest of the time the trees get on with growing.
I have answered before that the seeds are not poisonous, very few (and
well-known) seeds are poisonous, seeds mostly taste of nothing in
particular, like wheat, rice, maize... and I and friends have tested
them and I have been in touch with a Finnish agricultural hippy who
sweeps the seeds off the snow (this is Finland!) and puts them into
his soup. We are all still alive! I have answered these questions
before and won't again.
Michael Bell

Please use your considerable talents for something else more useful.

Christina.

I accept now that you are not a simple obstructionist, but that you
mean well. So let me say:-

* I know very well, and have said so to all, that I may not succeed in
starting a process that will lead to alder being developed as a grain
crop, and I accept that risk.

Many ventures have started out unsure of sucess. But it ought to be
possible; natural and artificial selection can achieve great things.

* The aldergrain project takes up a total of maybe 3 months of my
year. The rest of the time the trees get on with growing and I get on
with other things.

* One of my projects, which shows signs of success is
www.beaverbell.co.uk the acceptance of "HS3", the Leeds-Manchester
link is not my work alone, but I like to think I have contributed to
it.

So don't trouble yourself about me and have a

Merry Christmas.

Michael Bell

[Christina Websell]

"Michael Bell" <***@beaverbell.co.uk> wrote in message > Many ventures
have started out unsure of sucess. But it ought to be

Post by Michael Bell
possible; natural and artificial selection can achieve great things.
* The aldergrain project takes up a total of maybe 3 months of my
year. The rest of the time the trees get on with growing and I get on
with other things.
* One of my projects, which shows signs of success is
www.beaverbell.co.uk the acceptance of "HS3", the Leeds-Manchester
link is not my work alone, but I like to think I have contributed to
it.

Oh, I doubt that but perhaps you can prove it, happy to accept it if they
do.
Would it be fair to say that you are well on the autistic spectrum?

[Michael Bell]

Post by Michael Bell
have started out unsure of sucess. But it ought to be

Post by Michael Bell
possible; natural and artificial selection can achieve great things.
* The aldergrain project takes up a total of maybe 3 months of my
year. The rest of the time the trees get on with growing and I get on
with other things.
* One of my projects, which shows signs of success is
www.beaverbell.co.uk the acceptance of "HS3", the Leeds-Manchester
link is not my work alone, but I like to think I have contributed to
it.

Oh, I doubt that but perhaps you can prove it, happy to accept it if they
do.
Would it be fair to say that you are well on the autistic spectrum?

That is a unwarranted slur. How does having ideas and wanting to put
them into practice show me as autistic? Were the Wright brothers and
George and Robert Stephenson autists? I see myself as a normal human
being and so do those around me.

Michael Bell

[Christina Websell]

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
have started out unsure of sucess. But it ought to be

Post by Michael Bell
possible; natural and artificial selection can achieve great things.
* The aldergrain project takes up a total of maybe 3 months of my
year. The rest of the time the trees get on with growing and I get on
with other things.
* One of my projects, which shows signs of success is
www.beaverbell.co.uk the acceptance of "HS3", the Leeds-Manchester
link is not my work alone, but I like to think I have contributed to
it.

Oh, I doubt that but perhaps you can prove it, happy to accept it if they
do.
Would it be fair to say that you are well on the autistic spectrum?

That is a unwarranted slur. How does having ideas and wanting to put
them into practice show me as autistic? Were the Wright brothers and
George and Robert Stephenson autists? I see myself as a normal human
being and so do those around me.
Michael Bell

It's not meant to be a slur. Let's just say that your ideas about breeding
alder seeds to feed the world are unusual.

[Malcolm Ogilvie]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:13:33 -0000, "Christina Websell"

Post by Christina Websell

Post by Michael Bell

Post by Michael Bell
have started out unsure of sucess. But it ought to be

Post by Michael Bell
possible; natural and artificial selection can achieve great things.
* The aldergrain project takes up a total of maybe 3 months of my
year. The rest of the time the trees get on with growing and I get on
with other things.
* One of my projects, which shows signs of success is
www.beaverbell.co.uk the acceptance of "HS3", the Leeds-Manchester
link is not my work alone, but I like to think I have contributed to
it.

Oh, I doubt that but perhaps you can prove it, happy to accept it if they
do.
Would it be fair to say that you are well on the autistic spectrum?

That is a unwarranted slur. How does having ideas and wanting to put
them into practice show me as autistic? Were the Wright brothers and
George and Robert Stephenson autists? I see myself as a normal human
being and so do those around me.
Michael Bell

It's not meant to be a slur. Let's just say that your ideas about breeding
alder seeds to feed the world are unusual.

Don't concern yourself with Tina's comments, Michael. She has a tendency to say things
without always giving enough thought before posting. I dare say there's a name for such a
habit!

Malcolm